tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1241684761340467690.post1160264463255894694..comments2022-12-11T04:55:14.695-07:00Comments on Zen Naturalism: All Beings Are Without Blame (Part One)Poep Sa Frank Judehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13609272991412471770noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1241684761340467690.post-52337494383740120222012-04-02T13:57:22.810-07:002012-04-02T13:57:22.810-07:00Ryan, Thanks for your post the the link.
I agree ...Ryan, Thanks for your post the the link.<br /><br />I agree with the Soto Zen monk, AND would still say that what the buddha taught is a whole-brain teaching, which includes rational, critical thinking and discourse. As much of the zen rhetoric is about 'being beyond words,' considering how many words zen teachers have vomited up about it being beyond words, I appreciate some straight-up talk! :-)Poep Sa Frank Judehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13609272991412471770noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1241684761340467690.post-7026219354655353942012-04-02T06:04:24.012-07:002012-04-02T06:04:24.012-07:00Good post on a subject that deserves more exposure...Good post on a subject that deserves more exposure. I used to collect 'no free will' quotes from eastern philosophy on this blog...<br />http://expeditiontotheedge.blogspot.co.uk/<br />However for all the rhetoric and debate, I think I heard the best answer last month from a Soto Zen monk - 'just go into your own present experience. I don't know anything about free will. It is an idea. What you experience is all that is important'.<br />Cheery-pip, Ryan-https://www.blogger.com/profile/17725064514716598147noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1241684761340467690.post-23039421746230690142012-04-01T17:45:37.906-07:002012-04-01T17:45:37.906-07:00Just to be clear: Intentions also are conditioned;...Just to be clear: Intentions also are conditioned; we cannot make intentions free from conditions, so we should not fall into any arrogance about our 'superior' intentions. If my intention is to practice <i>sila</i>, then I must realize my good fortune to have had the conditions to do so; and NOT BLAME THOSE who have not.<br /><br />Any "personal choices" we make are also conditioned. We can no more "self recreate" free from conditions then we can make ourselves younger! If we had such autonomy, the buddha said we could say "Let my body be thus, and it would be thus." Ha! If <i>only</i>!Poep Sa Frank Judehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13609272991412471770noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1241684761340467690.post-19920846150801511492012-04-01T17:38:58.967-07:002012-04-01T17:38:58.967-07:00While I really don’t care for “anonymous” comments...While I really don’t care for “anonymous” comments (what are you embarrassed or afraid of) there are several points raised in this comment that I am sure others may be thinking and so it may be helpful to address them here.<br /><br />First, the statement, "All beings are without blame" is an old “proverb” repeated – and chanted – in many Zen communities. Perhaps “Mr. Anonymous” knows less about Zen then he thinks he knows. <br /><br />Second, the word “special” simply refers to the isolating aspect of blaming the individual. My argument is that while someone can be “act responsible” there is no justification for any special kind of praise or blame. Nothing supernatural about the word “special” at all.<br /><br />Third, “Mr. Anonymous shows a pretty superficial understanding of buddhism when he says “nothing in this article sounds like buddhism.” Perhaps he is unaware of dependent origination and <i>anatta,</i> which just happen to be the central teachings of the buddha that most distinguish his teaching from brahmanism. But, you needn’t take my word for it; here’s a direct quote from Walpola Rahula’s now classic <i>What The Buddha Taught:</i><br /><br />"The question of Free Will has occupied an important place in Western thought and philosophy. But according to Conditioned Genesis (note: this is his term for Dependent Origination), this question does not and cannot arise in Buddhist philosophy. If the whole of existence is relative, conditioned and interdependent, how can will alone be free? Will, like any other thought, is conditioned. So-called ‘freedom’ itself is conditioned and relative. There can be nothing absolutely free, physical or mental, as everything is interdependent and relative. If Free Will implies a will independent of conditions, independent of cause and effect, such a thing does not exist. How can a will, or anything for that matter, arise without conditions, away from cause and effect, when the whole of existence is conditioned and relative, and is within the law of cause and effect? Here again, the idea of Free Will is basically connected with the ideas of God, Soul, justice, reward and punishment. Not only is so-called free will not free, but even the very idea of Free Will is not free from conditions."<br /><br />Perhaps "Mr Anonymous" might see that this is exactly my point! Buddhism does NOT offer a doctrine of Free Will. He is projecting Western concerns where they have no business!Poep Sa Frank Judehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13609272991412471770noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1241684761340467690.post-89792845027042796992012-04-01T15:37:46.929-07:002012-04-01T15:37:46.929-07:00sI don't think its a very good article. first ...sI don't think its a very good article. first off he starts with "it is said that the buddha said..." It would be much more convincing if he could provide a source. Secondly in para 3 he says moral responsibility is for that which requires "special" reward or punishment. Why do we need the word special if there is no supernaturalism? Or is he referring to "special crimes but of what sort of are they? Para 4 seems to be putting teh argument that Sam Harris puts in his talk recently posted. I note at the end that his sources are all contemporary philosophers so i would argue that this is not zen at all. In fact, nothing in this article sounds like buddhism. It doesn't make sense that the buddha would argue against blame or moral responsibility since the whole idea of intention in the noble eightfold path means that one does have control over one's choices. Further one of the most significant distinctions between buddhism and brahmanism (the pre-existing religious philosophy) is that buddha allows for personal choice and self recreation. Thus ultimately budhdism is a doctrine of free will and not determinism.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1241684761340467690.post-69641916058385293632012-04-01T06:46:04.385-07:002012-04-01T06:46:04.385-07:00Sam Harris has written on Free Will in much the sa...Sam Harris has written on Free Will in much the same vein both in his book, "The Moral Landscape" in a blog post in his WEB site, http://www.samharris.org/ and in a recent book entitled "Free Will". He also presented his perspective at a talk at Caltech, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCofmZlC72g<br /><br />Sam has also studied Buddhist meditation and talks about "transcendence" in naturalistic terms.vinegardaoisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04736925714223148141noreply@blogger.com