tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1241684761340467690.post6825542665476997961..comments2022-12-11T04:55:14.695-07:00Comments on Zen Naturalism: All Beings Are Without Blame (Part Three)Poep Sa Frank Judehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13609272991412471770noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1241684761340467690.post-13364367206508381102012-06-18T17:45:30.037-07:002012-06-18T17:45:30.037-07:00Matthias, I smiled when I read your opening line a...Matthias, I smiled when I read your opening line above: "I don't think you think...." A perfect example of how difficult it can be to communicate clearly through this 'blog-technology.' I'm sure -- as Glenn often repeats -- it would be much smoother over a Guinness!<br /><br />It's actually because I'm acutely aware that many people confuse indeterminism with free will that I thought you might be thinking I was one of those who do so! <br /><br />I am emphasizing this phrase "All beings are without blame," because though I first heard it in a zen context, my experience of many contemporary buddhists (the 'x-buddhists') seem to 'flinch' from the implications of <i>anatta</i> and take on a "heroic" kind of ideal regarding behavior. It's like: "There is no self, but YOU are totally responsible for your actions and you can make your vows and change."<br /><br />One question I ask my students studying the precepts is, "In the light of 'not-self,' who takes the precepts?" in order to get them to at least begin to see through their self-conceit.<br /><br />Sadly, I've no "patent remedy," other than saying that taking the <i>anatta</i> teaching seriously, and keeping up to date with contemporary neural science has honed my meditation practice in order to understand how my introspection can fool me into thinking there's some independently existent acausal agent.<br /><br />By the way, thanks for your taking time to comment; it is greatly appreciated!Poep Sa Frank Judehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13609272991412471770noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1241684761340467690.post-937079011686358662012-06-18T16:29:31.982-07:002012-06-18T16:29:31.982-07:00Frank, I don´t think that you think quantum random...Frank, I don´t think that you think quantum randomness is a key to free will. I just thought it could be important to mention it because many people confuse indeterminism with free will. You, of course, don´t belong to them. I like your approach to show that all beings are without blame. I often catch me blaming myself for being the person I am now. I often think it could have turned out otherwise with the help of my control/agency. So your words are very important to me. I am a stench naturalist but my introspection seems to fool me. Perhaps you have some patent remedy for me :-)Matthiasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1241684761340467690.post-63137449137722937572012-06-16T09:07:27.117-07:002012-06-16T09:07:27.117-07:00Mathias,
Yes, there are more interpretations of ...Mathias, <br /><br />Yes, there are more interpretations of quantum mechanics than the Copenhagen and one of my own pet 'bug-bears' is the new-agey (Deepak Chopra) misapplication of quantum mechanics based upon the Copenhagen interpretation.<br /><br />I'm not sure what I said that may have led you to believe I think quantum randomness (if it is truly part of the 'fabric of reality') is some key to 'free will.' My whole argument in this series is that there is no acausal free will. With the lack of any agency independent of contingency, there is no basis for praise or blame; thus I am arguing against the retributive/punitive form of (so-called) "justice."Poep Sa Frank Judehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13609272991412471770noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1241684761340467690.post-15924064048972081622012-06-16T03:59:40.229-07:002012-06-16T03:59:40.229-07:00Frank,
there are several interpretations of quantu...Frank,<br />there are several interpretations of quantum mechanics (Copenhagen, many worlds...). If I understand it correctly, some interpret the indeterminism as belonging to the reality of the universe, others say reality is totally deterministic but our capacities to predict are worse when it comes to quantum processes. I don´t know. But it seems obvious that randon processes if belonging to reality could never strenghten our ability to act freely, whatever that may be. Randomness isn´t a solution to free will. For more on determinism, take a look at that: http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2011/12/05/on-determinism/Matthiasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1241684761340467690.post-40343035774783222902012-06-13T15:13:18.965-07:002012-06-13T15:13:18.965-07:00Matthias,
In saying that the universe is indeterm...Matthias,<br /><br />In saying that the universe is indeterminate you mean random? I guess at the quantum level this would be so. Is this what you mean by "at its core the universe is indeterminate?"Poep Sa Frank Judehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13609272991412471770noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1241684761340467690.post-45515437048202047112012-06-13T07:58:57.279-07:002012-06-13T07:58:57.279-07:00Frank,
I for myself tend to think that at its core...Frank,<br />I for myself tend to think that at its core the universe is indeterminate, but when it comes to decision processes, we can assume determinism for several reasons (size of brain particles, temperature etc.). So the choice making of the rat is deterministic while choosing one route and also deterministic while choosing the other route.Matthiasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1241684761340467690.post-83315156286132823392012-06-12T15:54:35.389-07:002012-06-12T15:54:35.389-07:00Matthias,
If I understand your question correctly...Matthias,<br /><br />If I understand your question correctly, I'd say that what I am trying to convey in that sentence is based upon the rat experiments I mention. Though laboratory rats learn that food is reliably certain to be found in a particular location, they will STILL occasionally try a different route. The generally accepted naturalist explanation is that <i>in nature/natural setting</i> as opposed to the laboratory, if a rat found food in one place and then always returned to that location using the same route, it would have less a chance of survival than a rat that "spontaneously" tried alternatives. This choice making is naturally conditioned or determined.<br /><br />So, the "need for open alternatives" is naturally conditioned. Perhaps any particular route taken is either 'strictly determined' or randomly indeterminate, I'm not sure how we'd know. I personally tend to go with determinism on this. What do you think?Poep Sa Frank Judehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13609272991412471770noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1241684761340467690.post-60663756076390310822012-06-12T14:06:37.317-07:002012-06-12T14:06:37.317-07:00On a naturalists blog, George Ortega (http://causa...On a naturalists blog, George Ortega (http://causalconsciousness.com/) has noted that "...it seems counterproductive to use the term free will in the way" you're "using it, when it already has an established historical meaning that's different. Frank seems to be asserting that our will is free when it comes to adapting to new conditions, but causality would prohibit that freedom."<br />Could you please comment on that remark?Matthias Mauderernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1241684761340467690.post-73703237961370554262012-06-11T18:49:46.361-07:002012-06-11T18:49:46.361-07:00Hi Tom,
Thanks for your comment. I guess I shoul...Hi Tom,<br /><br />Thanks for your comment. I guess I should highlight that Waller's book is actually the inspiration for this series! I mention that fact in the first essay, but as the series itself would not be possible without his work, I will reiterate it's importance!Poep Sa Frank Judehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13609272991412471770noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1241684761340467690.post-45313329938020557752012-06-11T18:37:56.693-07:002012-06-11T18:37:56.693-07:00Thanks for this series, very important stuff. If y...Thanks for this series, very important stuff. If you haven't already mentioned it, I highly recommend Bruce Waller's book Against Moral Responsibility, reviewed at http://www.naturalism.org/Wallerreview.htmTom Clarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08414754510736349472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1241684761340467690.post-75940741894459987832012-06-11T12:44:37.523-07:002012-06-11T12:44:37.523-07:00Dear Frank, could you please say some clearing wor...Dear Frank, could you please say some clearing words to what you exactly mean when you say that "...the natural need for open alternatives is an important element of freedom.” Do you have a concept of free will in mind that requires indeterminism or is your free will concept compatible with determinism?Matthiasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1241684761340467690.post-26662546557364181542012-06-11T07:54:04.860-07:002012-06-11T07:54:04.860-07:00Thanks for this series, very important stuff. If y...Thanks for this series, very important stuff. If you haven't already mentioned it, I highly recommend Bruce Waller's book Against Moral Responsibility, reviewed at http://www.naturalism.org/Wallerreview.htmTom Clarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08414754510736349472noreply@blogger.com